Grrrr......we could use Acro's insight about now...dern retirement.

This community member's test doesn't look good for PWs.

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<DIV class=quote>Quote: Posted 10/03/06 06:28:29 (GMT) by AU_Armageddon

... Module Size. We were expecting a 32x32 area to be 20mb with an estimated 5mb more to fill it. That does not appear entirely true. A 32x32 area weighs in at 28mb. But that is unbaked... An area has to be baked before it can be used, walked on or anything. Once you bake this 32x32 area it weighs in at 54mb - that's totally empty.
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<DIV class=quote> </DIV>
<DIV class=quote>If the test stands it means we were off by 60% or so on our estimates. So what we were expecting may change.</DIV>
<DIV class=quote> </DIV>
<DIV class=quote>This was our original expectations...</DIV>
<DIV class=quote>What was Acro's specs...40 32x32 or  70 16x16, and 250 interiors per 1.5 gigs?</DIV>
<DIV class=quote> </DIV>
<DIV class=quote>So at only a third of that if the testing is accurate it would be...</DIV>
<DIV class=quote>13 32x32 or 21 16x16 exterior areas...maybe a little higher if Acro's specs were based on filled areas, not empty.</DIV>
<DIV class=quote> </DIV>
<DIV class=quote>Would be a nice time for Acro to make an unschedulaed pop in to say hi.</DIV>
<DIV class=quote> </DIV>
<DIV class=quote>...and now there's a name for the CRUDs we need to download to PW players.  TRX files.</DIV>
<DIV class=quote> </DIV>
<DIV class=quote>A TRN file is what we use to create an exterior area but to be able to game in the area we need to bake the TRN into TRX and supply it to our player base.</DIV>
<DIV class=quote> </DIV>
<DIV class=quote>Has anyone here been doing any testing along these lines yet?</DIV>

If that 54 meg test figure includes either a TRN or TRX file, then since the TRX would already be present on the client's PC, the size of the TRX can be deducted from the 54 megs as far as the server max of 1.5 gigs of RAM?

My Module size is almost exactly 80 megs (baked).

That includes 1 32x32 area and 6 interior areas (4 small, 2 medium).   I am not sure anyone has a clue as to what the server does with the file, since its a single MOD file.  Futher, how do we get the TRX file seperate to prepare for download to the players?

Tons of unanswered questions.

As far as I have heard the client file(TRX) was going to have to be downloaded from outside the game.  Ingame streaming would be a nightmare depending on how many new players and how much new walmesh development was occuring.

There has to be either a folder to pull TRX files out of after the baking process(external to the game).  Or some sort of export command inside game that should export the TRX file to a location of your choice.

Have you baked your mod Segal and tried exporting it yet?

More info via Aristance on the boards...

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TRX files are found in a folder with the module name in the Modules folder in Neverwinter Nights 2.

I built a medium city (8x8) with slopes, docks, water, roads and buildings. The TRX files was 7 MB.

My co-admin built a large volcano (24x24). It is not complete, with few placables other than a single person and a ship, and minor texture. The TRN was 24 MB; the TRX was 22 MB.

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Just two areas and a possible crud of 29 mb for a download.

Hey Segal?  Can you find the TRX for your mod and tell us if it's a single TRX or one for each area?

EDIT --- just found out it's a seperate TRX for each mod area.  Means a lot of smaller TRX's to manage for the builder but a little easier on the players having to download them.

[Edited by ExileHF at 9:55 AM on 10/5/2006]

I think at this point, people will have to start small and then work upwards as technology catches up over the next couple of years.  4 years ago, the same issues arose with NWN1 because machines weren't spiffy enough to handle large worlds.  Years down the line, worlds were huge, Broadband became a lot more wide spread and the player base was able to accept large HAK downloads.  Admins were able to get more out of a faster server, etc.

I think we're facing the same deal here and will have to be tricky with how things get built.  To the point of using a single large area for multiple areas in your world.  I say this because it seems having a 32 x 32 area seems to take up (percentage wise when compared to) less space than say 4 x 16 x 16 (there seems to be some base overhead that goes into any area on the walkmesh).

My plans for Grim's Tavern II are in flux at the moment.  I plan on making one overland area for the main town, and the rest will be subterrainean in nature.  Once all this gets sorted out, I'll move the dungeons to new outdoor areas where they were before.  But first...need to find me a server (and wait for game release). ;)

Its been tested and the TRX files can be compressed by RAR down to about a sixth of their natural state.  This is a big boon for getting data out to players and gets TRX's down into the realm of Hak size.  Plus there are seperate TRX for each mod area so only actively developed areas will need to be re-TRX'd from build to build.

Managing the TRX's will be the big thing and that will fall to the builders and spare the players.  Players will simply treat the TRX as they would a Hak...un-RAR and place in their specific mod folder over-writing any previous versions.

RAR files can be encrypted on creation so they should also be relatively secure if transmitted via torrents.  Just include the password on your server's website in full view so anyone connected to NWN2 will have full access and any torrent lurkers will not.  Less chance of copycat files with viri/maleware/deliberate corruption being slipped in.

I posted this on the boards already but will include it here for any PW-specific discusion...

I did some rough calculating and this based on empty exteriors and interiors.

A SP module or a PW of the following size would hit the 1.5 gig threshold we've estimated a server could handle without choking...

Exteriors, 10 each of 32x32, 24x24, 16x16, 8x8, 4x4
Interiors, 176 maximum sized 32x32

This should be RAR'd down to around 250 megs in size(untested).

For a PW, the initial TRX download would be 226 seperate TRX files for a total of 633 megs, RAR'd down to around 106 megs(untested).

SP mods would not require a TRX download and any subsequent PW updates would only require the TRX changed to be redownloaded.

Keep in mind all the above areas are empty but by balancing placeable addition with some area removal you should have a fairly balanced idea of what a 2 gig server should be able to push. It's already been mentioned that 4 16x16 areas add up to a substancially greater size then a single 32x32 area so reducing the number of large areas will not necessarily give you an equal amount of smaller ones. I think the edging probably has something to do with that.

Nothing beats live battlefield testing when the game goes live but we have a ballpark idea where we stand as far as maximums go. Anyone that's actually testing maximum sized mods please feel to correct me where need be.

For me to bake something the size of the example above would take me about an hour and half on my rig and I have more pressing matters to delve into at the moment.

I think a 226 area mod as above would make for a decent PW and just increase the size by a like amount for every extra server in your setup.

Also, any Obsidian optimizations will improve these numbers.

So the 226 area approximation is unbaked?

But the .MOD file is baked and I would assume that is what the Server uses.   Very confused here.  Baking essentially doubles the module size.   Not to mention that a 32x32 area will easily have an additional 10 megs of placables.

It's baked.  You won't generate a TRX file for players without cooking the mod first.  You also need to have the area you want to extract the TRX file from open in the toolset to both bake it and afterwards have access to the TRX.

Here's the basic data for external areas after being cooked...

32x32 empty area --- Mod Size: 52.4 megs, TRX Size: 25.2 megs, Time to bake: 5 minutes

24x24 empty area --- Mod Size: 36 megs, TRX Size: 17.2 megs, Time to bake: 2.5 minutes

16x16 empty area --- Mod Size: 22.7, TRX Size: 10.7, Time to bake: 1 minute

8x8 empty area --- Mod Size: 12.6, TRX Size: 5.86, Time to bake: 10 seconds

4x4 empty area --- Mod Size: 8.7 megs, TRX Size: 4 megs, Time to bake: 5 seconds

As far as how many megs of placeables...it'll vary so no way to track.

The builder will simply have to adjust as appropiate.  If you use 10megs per 32x32 area then cutting back one 32x32 area will allow you a 10 meg placement in 5 32x32 areas.  You'll have to adjust down areas in order to free up room for placeables.  Or another way if 10 megs is an amount you require to fill out a 32x32 area, removing the 10 8x8 areas will give enough room to fill out all 10 32x32 areas.

It's mix and match as development progresses with area sacrificed according to how dressed areas end up being.

In TTL's case, it has a total of 6 servers to develop, maximum.  Our general area size limits are usually 16x16 max so right off the start we would have 884 megs free'd up from skipping 10 32x32 and 24x24.  We could then add an additional 20 16x16 areas for 454 megs leaving us 430 megs for placeables spread out across 226 areas at an average of 2 megs apiece.  If we come up short in room for placeables on the 16x16 areas we'll simply have to cut back on how full we place in the smaller and internal areas of the server or move some of the more intensive areas over to a server specially setup to handle them.

[Edited by ExileHF at 2:57 PM on 10/6/2006]

A fully detailed 32x32 area baked weighs in at around 150MB. Build a 32x32 city area and bake it and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Persistent WORLDS are not possible with NWN2 unless they can reduce this ridiculous area size issue or people have 4GB RAM server farms handy.

10 exterior areas is not a PW.

Wow...even trying to break that down into 4 16x16 areas wouldn't work because together they add up to about 150% of the size of a single 32x32, empty.  The polycounts on placeables are definitely beyond what we are used to on NWN.

I still might be able to get my NWN mod around that issue.  Even under NWN I only showed the main island city in slices with the rest decripted to feed the mind's eye.  I kept my rural exteriors to 16x16 max and the city areas to 8x8.  It's that edging that's likely having an impact on cooking an area.  Even though it's unwalkable it has to be skewing the smaller area results or else 4 16x16's should equal up to a single 32x32.

It is definitely going to take a multi-server PW to accomplish a moderately sized world.  I figure TTL's 6 servers will give us around a 500 to 600 area mod, long term, with maybe a 25/75 exterior/interior split.  We of course are talking development in years here, not months.  That's also dependant on whether our admin is going to sign off on this obvious headache for him.  I just need to help build it, one brick at a time but he will have to each builders submission and get it up and running.

It'll be excellent for the players, good for the builders and a headache for the server admins.

Yep. Looks like SP mods for a long time for me.   I think SP modules will be the life of NWN2 for a while till technology or optimizations can be made.

But I think I will return to NWN for a PW as well.  Hell, I still have a server for it.  Which is more than I can say for possibilities of an NWN2 server.

Make sure you are converting all your placeables to enviromental objects.

My 32x32 area, fully loaded with 2 villages is roughly 75 megs in size.   Actually filling up a 32x32 area takes quite a bit of work and I have ample space in that one area to go back and add about 5-8 dungeon entrances and such.   I had already built my NWN2 world design using NWN1 and the one 32x32 areas replaces 5 areas that I had created in NWN1.

I just want to take a moment to throw out a word of warning on the 32x32 areas. My recommendation is that you dont' use that size of area folks. NwN can not handle a lot of characters in a single area, or a lot of NPC's and PC's in a single area, without lagging. It is that way because of the way the engine sends network updates. Since, from what I understand, OE did not mess with the networking part of NwN this is likely to be the same issue in NwN2. While the 32x32 area size itself is not a problem the amount of PC's/NPC's in the area is going to present a problem if your world/online module gets popular. The size is going to make it more likely that you are going to see lag spikes due to network transfers and the number of character/npc updates that it is having to send for a given single area. Since the size of the area is larger it is therefore more likely that more will be in the area, and that will present more problems when the world/module becomes popular in an online environment. Just be careful is all I am saying and just be aware that when you get popular you will likely have to resize that area to keep the lag spikes from happening.

This is not a dig on anything/anybody, it is me just trying to put that cautionary approach out there.

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Segal wrote:

Make sure you are converting all your placeables to enviromental objects.

My 32x32 area, fully loaded with 2 villages is roughly 75 megs in size.   Actually filling up a 32x32 area takes quite a bit of work and I have ample space in that one area to go back and add about 5-8 dungeon entrances and such.   I had already built my NWN2 world design using NWN1 and the one 32x32 areas replaces 5 areas that I had created in NWN1.

 

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Already doing that, but remember - that is an option for objects that you know will not be effecting combat or movement in any way.  Environmental objects aside from becoming dummy objects do not detect collision.  So you can shoot spells and arrows, as well as walk through environmental objects.  As such, I only put logically out of reach placeables down as EO's.

Just an update.

Currently working on my second 32x32 exterior and this time paying far more attention to the file size.   With it about 1/3 complete, the file size is 59 megs (Baked).   That is with 2 texture types, 21 trees, 2 water sources, multiple elevations and about 200 placeables.  I figure it will top out at about 65 megs fully loaded.

*shaking head* a single 32x32 area...65, 75, 150 megs in size.  My final build for my entire Emerald Isle mod on TTL  was 88 megs.  Times are a changin'.

TTL as a whole consists of 7 linked servers.  7 mods of sizes, 102 mb, 88mb, 81 mb, 57 mb, 38 mb, 32 mb, and 17 mb.  That's a total of 415 mb representing about 1500 areas.

With NWN2 we are realistically looking at around 150 areas weighing in at  1.5 gigs in size.  Maybe all together we would manage a total size of around 600 areas across 6 servers at the cost of 9 gigs in total size and a requirement on players of at least one download consisting of 600 TRX files about 4.5 gigs in size spread over 4 years of development.

I can say with almost 99% certainty that isn't going to occur.  Whatever comes of TTL under NWN2 will only be a faint shadow of what it was in NWN.  The sacrifice PWs will have to pay for an advanced toolset isn't worth it.

I can understand retirements, returns to NWN and changing over to SP mod building. 

We only had about 400 areas across 3 servers and I think maybe a handful of players have seen all the areas; players who play time is calculated in 1000s of hours.    There will definately be a need for more density and better use of areas; repeatable and somewhat dynamic content.  

Were I to have multiple servers at my disposal for NWN2, my plan of attack would be for them to be sequential in nature.    The first server would have the newbie areas and a cental gathering point.  The next server would have a higher range of adventure, and so on and so on.    The new player would only download the files for the first server.  If he liked the server, it wouldnt be much of a burden to download the next file set to progress on the second server.

Also, it does not seem that the interior files are that much larger than NWN1 files.   So lots and lots of dungeons would be the ticket; which was my plan anyway.